Update: Epoch’s 460ah battery, what we’ve learned

Ben Stein

Ben Stein

Publisher of Panbo.com, passionate marine electronics enthusiast, 100-ton USCG master.

40 Responses

  1. Evan says:

    Thank you Ben.

    This is an Excellent summary.

    I have the exact setup you describe with 2 Epoch 460’s in parallel, a Victron BMV shunt and multiple charging sources set for 13.9 V Absorption & 13.45 Float. (The Victron.Direct Bluetooth network is a great way to coordinate the chargers referencing the BMV) This has been working very well maintaining decent SOC on shorepower, with no MOSFET shutdowns & good cell balancing with bulk charging.

    I’ve been experimenting with seeing how high charging rates can go with my setup and despite a theoretical 330+ Amp capacity, have yet to see more than ~245 A of acceptance from this pair of batteries.

    I’m not convinced that setting the bulk / absorption voltages any higher than 13.9 VDC would significantly increase charge acceptance rates but will look forward to your findings.

  2. Corey Brindisi says:

    would you recommend those same absorption/float voltages for the 50ah Epoch? I have one connected to a Victron DC/DC charger.

    • Ben Stein Ben Stein says:

      Corey,

      I’d check and see if you see the full charge protection fault in the app for those batteries. I’m not sure if they have the feature implemented or not. If they do, I would use these same settings.

      -Ben S.

      • Corey says:

        yeah, I’ve seen the fault. Very first time had me terribly confused. “Being fully charged is a fault?! I thought that was a good thing??”

  3. Scott Beeg says:

    Disabling Victron Comms would make hard to integrate with a Wakespeed controller. Any ideas on that?

  4. Allen Jones says:

    Thanks Ben. Only thing I might add is the comms work great is using 1,2,3 or 4 in parallel or 2 in series. Beyond that the shunt is a better option IMO. And you are so right in that we are in the early stages of this. Its exciting to think of what systems will be out there in 5 years. Some kind of industry standardization might be beneficial to standardize minimum protocols for comms between batts, alternator controllers, solar and anything else.

    • Ben Stein Ben Stein says:

      Allen,

      There is definitely room for multiple opinions. Depending on your installation design and personal preferences, there are a number of different approaches that may work better for some than others.

      My reasoning for a lack of enthusiasm about comms are the following:

      • Inaccurate SOC based on small loads
      • Bluetooth communications limitations when battery addresses are set for commms
      • Potential for spurious alarmas

      The first concern gets worse the more batteries you have in parallel. With a four battery bank, any load under about 5.6 amps won’t be measured. On my workbench, I frequently find the readings from the battery’s BMS quite optimistic compared to a SmartShunt also on the battery. The second concern is one I’ve seen firsthand a few times but not on my bench as I only have one battery there. The alarms concern is the most easily mitigated as I think with proper charge settings those alarms are nearly eliminated.

      But, I definitely understand others may come to a different conclusion. In fact, we see several experienced and knowledgeable people here coming to a different conclusion than I’ve reached.

      -Ben S.

  5. Joseph Pica says:

    Ben S., Very good evaluartion. An adjustable delay setting for the LVC/HVC cut-off with alert would add a safety factor as wellaslow temperature charging without heat/warming strips. Also a buffer battery to prevent the spike damage of sensitive vulnerable devices e.g. alternators.

  6. Egenolf says:

    Thanks Ben ,
    Excellent testing thanks for info.
    Question: is 13,8 volt sufficient to start cell balancing?
    I rather would suggest to set the cell balancing threshold at 3,45 volt per cell (= 13,8 V for the battery)
    And set the overall charge limit at 14,0 volt.
    Victron themselves use 14,2 volt as maximum charge limit for their LiFePO4 batteries.
    See also recommendations from “Andy” at “offgrid garage”, Australia

  7. Jake says:

    There ya go! Well spoken.

    Personally, I like the comms.

  8. George Underwood says:

    I have my 460 batteries and in a slow process of finalizing my interconnect schematics and the mechanicals of modifying the battery compartment in my motorhome. I was going to include a Cerbo GX and use the battery comms, along with VE Direct connections to a Victron XS 12-12 50 DC-DC charger, and a Victron BMV-712 which I already have from another project. I will retain my existing Xantrex XC 2000 inverter/charger, which has custom charge profile capability and no compatible bus with the Cerbo (I assume). In addition to monitoring/control of the Victron components mentioned, The Cerbo GX was going to be used to drive a 3 time delay relay circuit to generate auto start/stop signals needed for my Onan generator. Your recommendation to not connect the Epoch 460 busses suggests eliminating the Cerbo GX in my system as well, with the auto generator start function possibly moving from a Cerbo relay output to the relay output of the BMV-712 (assuming I can program it to change state on specific SOC values). This would simplify and save $. Is there any reason I should keep the Cerbo GX in my design if the auto generator start function can be moved?

    • Ben Stein Ben Stein says:

      The biggest reason, in my opinion, to retain the Cerbo is off boat monitoring. Being able to see what’s happening with the system when you’re not on the boat and the rich history you get with VRM make the cost of a Cerbo worth it to me.

      -Ben S.

    • Bob Thibodeau says:

      You have a somewhat similar system to mine, however I only have one Epoch. Curious how you are setting the absorb time with your setup?

      • George Underwood says:

        Good Question!

        From the Xantrax Freedom XC 2000 manual:

        The Freedom XC transitions to the float stage if either one of the
        following two conditions are met:
        1. The charge current allowed by the batteries falls below the exit
        current threshold, which is equal to 10% of the programmed
        charge current and a minimum of 2A.
        2. The Freedom XC has been in absorption for the programmed
        maximum absorption time limit. The default is 6 h

        I plan to set my max charge current to 80A, which is the Xantrax-recommended value and the max setting allowed. (I will have 2 batteries in parallel so they will get 40A each which is well under the Epoch specified max of 230A max and recommended 100A).

        So my system will stay in absorb until Xantrax charge current is down to 8A (4A per battery), or 6hrs, whichever comes first.

        It will be interesting to see how all this works out! Im trudging through enclosing my battery box and mounting the electrical components now.

        • George Underwood says:

          Oh and there is no other mention of a programmable maximum absorption time limit in the Xantrax manual. So im assuming it isn’t programmable and will be 6hrs. Maybe the manual is in error and I will find the setting when I set everything up. I don’t know what I would set it to until the batteries go thru a few cycles anyway, with BMV-712 monitoring.

          • evan says:

            You almost need no absorption time. By the time you get to 13.85V with the bulk charging, the batteries will be at 99% SOC. Unlike Lead acid where a long absorption phase is necessary to get to 100% SOC, the low resistance of the LFP means a long absorption phase is unnecessary and if anything forces the cells into an unwelcome sustained 100% SOC.

        • George Underwood says:

          Well, I went a bit more down this rabbit hole. I searched the Xantrax manual and could find no information for what event(s) cause transition out of float, back to bulk or absorb. In google searching I found this string (you may have to register on sprinter forum). https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/97947/#:~:text=The%20Freedom%20XC%20has%20been,the%20next%20stage%20of%20charging. This has ramifications on possibly over-discharging to the point of BMS shutdown using my Xantrax. In that string, one guy called Xantrax and they said float mode will be exited when battery voltage reaches 12.2V. The fact that the Xantrax has no way of knowing there are possibly loads besides battery charging, and/or to not have a programmable threshold to kick back into absorption seems to me a fundamental problem. I have plans to change engine charging control to be triggered by SOC % using my BMV-712 or Cerbo. Maybe I should investigate modifying this for the shore power mode or consider changing the charger/inverter.

          • Bob Thibodeau says:

            Well, I hooked it all up today with the Magnum Charger and the battery was at 20% as received from Epoch. However, the charging never went into bulk but straight into absorb, which since I have the maximum absorption time set to 1 hr, the charger went into standby without the battery being fully charged. So I unplugged and plugged back in to start another absorption cycle. Guess I will have the rinse and repeat until the Epoch app shows that battery is at 13.8 ()3.45) and then let it go into standby.

        • Bob Thibodeau says:

          Well, had a few issues yesterday getting the Magnum 2012 to charge the battery yesterday. After speaking with Magnum tech support, I found I needed to bring the battery back down to the rebulk setting to start a new charge cycle. I currently have rebulk set at 13.2 and when the new charge cycle started the and after a few seconds went immediately to absorb but the voltage was below my absorb voltage setting. So I altered the absorb time to 2.5 hours to at least get the battery charged. It reached 100% SOC in the app but the cell voltage was just getting to 3.41 volts/cell average with the target of 3.45. Now I have re-read Ben’s findings above and realize that the SOC meter in the battery can’t be relied on for good information. This morning the battery is resting at 13.32 volts or 3.331 volts/cell. There is a couple of amp draw from the Magnum.

          So, I still have some research to do and place another call with Magnum. I need to find out what the voltage/time threshold is to switch to absorb since the voltage will flicker between two values (e.g., 13.7 & 13.8) for several minutes before settling on 13.8. I need to find out if it only needs to hit the 13.8 for a second to switch to absorb to it there is required time at 13.8 for the switch to occur and why it switched to absorb so quickly when the new charge cycle started.

          I am also thinking that 13.2 is too high a value to trigger a new charge cycle even though Victron seems to use a rebulk offset of 0.1, which in my case would be rebulk of 13.3 volts. I am considering moving the rebulk, at least for the Magnum, to 12.8 volts. Not sure if I should do the same on my Victron Orion DC-DC charger or leave the rebulk offset the same as Victron has in their lithium iron phosphate setup. I need to better understand what the Magnum is doing prior to making any changes.

  9. David Jade says:

    Makes me wonder, why not just get the essentials version (and add a class T fuse) if we’re not going to use the comms? Smaller and maybe even cheaper?

  10. Scott Schoneman says:

    Epoch is now advertising an “Essentisls” battery that appears to be the same 460 Ah battery but without the Victron comms. It still has Bluetooth. Price is $1399 vs $1999 with comms. Seems like this may be just the ticket!

  11. Charles says:

    Excellent update based on real world (and bench!) data.

    Wanting Victron integration and a different form factor, I ordered the Sun Fun Kits v5 battery after seeing the Epoch 460Ah commentary in the Facebook threads.

    Perhaps you can test those when they’re back in stock?

    • Ben Stein Ben Stein says:

      What great timing. I have been in touch with Sun Fun Kits and they are sending me some batteries. I hope to be able to report on what I’ve found in a little bit. Indeed, their approach to Victron comms looks quite different and I’m curious to see how it works out.

      -Ben S.

  12. Scott Berg says:

    In most of the designs I’ve done include a Lynx BMS (if Victron batteries), CERBO, Wakespeed 500, and large alternator(s). One critical issues is the ability of the system to connect to the Alternator Controller and open the field wire prior to an emergency BMS dictated shutdown. While I strongly agrue that on a properly designed, engineered, and installed system this should never happen it does make sense to have the BMS signal it in advance and shut down the alternator field. The only internal BMS batteries we’ve installed so far that had that function built in were Lithinonics.

    The comments I see on COMMS seem related to state of charge and not the primary features we use.

    • David Jade says:

      Not having a pre-shutdown signal with the Victron comms has been the thing I am most disappointed about. These are the best size/density that fits in the available space we have. Now I have to find some other way to protect the system in the event of a disconnect. Just can’t risk that in the middle of the ocean.

      • Evan Effa says:

        Hi David,

        My solution to this issue of how to deal with a sudden MOSFET / BMS shutdown is to use DC-DC Chargers to provide charging to LFP house bank (lead acid street bank fed fire y by the alternator) thereby protecting the alternator.

        In addition I plan to install an accessory DC-DC Converter powered by the start bank & connected as backup to the main DC panel (set to a voltage less than the LFP working range ~12.5 VDC). This should provide instantaneous backup power to essential instruments & engine controls etc. in the unlikely event of a sudden BMS shutdown underway.

        • David Jade says:

          Hi Evan,

          But aren’t you then limited by the lower charge capacity of most DC-DC chargers? Are there ones that can transfer the full output of a 200+ amp alternator to fast charge a big LFP bank?

          We don’t have much room for a bunch of parallel DC-DC chargers nor do we have room for a lead acid buffer bank.

          That’s why I was hoping that these LFPs would give us the signals we needed for a safe alternator shutdown.

          • Evan Effa says:

            Yes. It’s a compromise.

            I seriously considered changing to a Zeus external regulator but the risk of BMS shutdown was poorly mitigated in that configuration.

            I instead opted for 2 x Orion XS 50 Amp chargers for ~ 100A while running the main engine drawing off a 160 Amp externally regulated Alternator.

            If I’m really pressed for charging & faster capacity beyond that, I can also start the generator for an additional 200+ Amp of charging capacity.

  13. Sven says:

    The biggest plus to me for lithium is faster charging. How much does this negate that advantage vs higher end AGM?

    I have plenty of space and weight in my trawler, and things like this make it seem like I sign up for more trouble with marginal benefit?

  14. joe smith says:

    I have the 300Ah V2 battery and i also notice the SOC resolution is >1amp. It won’t recognize anything below that so the SOC coming from the bluetooth app is all over the place.

    I’m just using a bmv-712 with a smart shunt and it has a very high resolution and seems to be extremely accurate so far.

    The bluetooth app for the BMS is useful though. I have been charging at 13.8 volts and absorb for one hour. I use the app to confirm the cell voltages. By the time the absorption cycle is done the bmv monitor and the bluetooth app for the band show 99-100% SOC. From here i relly on the banc for SOC. It’s such a simple and accurate setup.

  15. Bob Thibodeau says:

    Thanks for all this work and documenting all of this information. If I hadn’t found this website I would have went ahead with a typical lithium charge cycle setup and probably been at a loss as to what was wrong when issues occurred.

    What would be the recommended setup for a CC/CV charge cycle. There doesn’t appear to be any “float” or “equalize” function if I use the CC/CV in my Magnum inverter rather than the “Custom Setup” charge cycle where the absorb, float and equalize are all settable parameters. Here is what I was thinking for a CC/CV charge cycle but would really like to get this community’s input on the values.

    Max Amps: 100 amps
    Charge Volts: 13.8 volts
    End Charge: Time
    Done Time: 0.5 hrs
    Max Time: 1.0 hrs
    Recharge: 13.1 volts
    Low Battery Cut Out: 12.0 volts

  16. Ray says:

    Reminds me of the old saying, “no one ever got fired for buying IBM”.

    Just buy Victron batteries is the conclusion we’re coming to.

    • Hi Ray – we bought the Victron 330ah 12V battery and the battery itself has been 110% – no issues – but the BMS board inside failed suddenly without warning of apparent cause (no actions at the time, no lightning, etc.). The effect was to turn the boat off completely – no charge, no loads – as the output signal from the battery was dead. We had to hot-wire the charge & load switches to affect a temporary recovery.
      Victron (or, more specifically, the distributor and dealer – Thanks, Scott!) eventually sent me a new board which I installed myself, and this board has been working fine ever since. I have also installed a protected “battle short” switch to allow me to manually override a BMS shutdown – and a diode splitter that continues to power certain critical systems from my AGM start battery if the main battery disconnects.

      My point is – even Victron can fail!

      Hartley
      S/V Atsa

  17. Joseph Pica says:

    If not a geek, the best bet is with primarily Victron equipment e.g. multiples inverters, chargers and monitors, which permit the maximum customized settings for charging etc. . All their equipment plays so well together and has great suport.

  18. Steve says:

    I have a question. My Epoch 460AH battery is at 53% and with the Orion XS 50 amp charger. I have the Orion trigger on with engine ignition and then it goes into float mode after about 10-15 seconds of bulk charging. Do I have a faulty Orion XS 50? My float is set to 13.5volts and the battery is still at 13.2 volts

    • Bob Thibodeau says:

      There is some good information on battery voltage sensing under the ” AC Battery Chargers & Inverter Chargers” section near the end of the article at the below link. I am having similar issues with my Magnum Inverter/Charger where it stays in bulk for several seconds and then switches to absorb. Battery charges okay in absorb, but I would like to correct this and as of yet haven’t found a good solution.

      https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

  19. Egenolf says:

    Measure voltage at the Orion terminals itself at 50 A full load. The reason may be cable losses or dirty contacts.

Join the conversation

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *