Don’t murder your batteries, tips for winter storage of LFP batteries

31 Responses

  1. Ray Goff says:

    Allen,
    Thanks for the article. Its great seeing your addition to Panbo. For those who don’t know Allen, I “met” him a couple years ago as I was moving to LiPo on my boat. We were both early to the Epoch scene, but Allen’s testing, Youtube videos, and countless chat conversations were awesome.

    I look forward to many more insights from all his hard work that the rest of us can benefit. And, eventually, meeting him in person.

  2. Serge Oaul says:

    Thanks for this very interesting article.
    Could leaving the the solar panel charging during the winter do the job?

    • Allen Jones says:

      Definitely. But even then checking on things, especially in the early stages of your storage, is a good idea. Atleast until you have a good understanding of how your system responds in a storage situation. Each boat is different.

    • Charlie Johnson says:

      Remember that the efficiency and output voltage of a solar panel is strongly temperature dependent. When a panel is cold it is more efficient and its output voltage increases. Take this into account when selecting your solar panel controller, either MPPT or PWM, to ensure that the controller can accommodate the increased voltage from a cold solar panel.

  3. mike says:

    what about storing in heated storage with batteries fully charged and disconeected.

    • Allen Jones says:

      Perfectly fine. But the main gist is to check them regularly to ensure there is no high self consumption or other anomalies that might give you a surprise

      • Allen Jones says:

        One correction. If you are storing in heated storage I would probably fully charge them and then take a bit off the top. You hear 50% quite often but I think that stems mainly from the requirements for manufactures prior to shipping. IMO anything slightly less than resting voltage would be fine. 50 to 90% soc or so.

        • Anonymous says:

          This has always been a bit confusing, what SOC to put an LFP battery into warm-ish winter storage for 6 months in Alaska where I work. Owners never understand, and I’ve never had a solid explanation to give, as to why we need to “take a little bit off the top” after a full charge. As long as the battery is fully disconnected after being properly fully charged, what is the explanation for needing to take it down to 90% SOC or so before storing it?

  4. Mic Fite Mic Fite says:

    Welcome Allen. It’s great to have you onboard.
    Great advice, nicely delivered. Which should also heeded by captains who leave their boats in Mexico, the Caribbean, etc. for months during the summer.

  5. Harry Keith Harry Keith says:

    Amps/hr is a commonly misused term, and as an engineer it makes me cringe. Unlike some misuse of units, it’s hard to really know what was meant (knots per hour, for instance, clearly means knots). Is he talking about a rate of increase (the literal meaning of .25 Amps/hour, where it is .25 Amps now, .5 Amps in an hour, and .75 Amps in two hours)? Or does he mean a consumption rate of .25 Amps? Or does he mean .25 Ah, without any time period (is it .25Ah/day, or .25Ah/hour — meaning really .25A)?

    I expect this exceptionally sloppy terminology from the unwashed masses. I can even tolerate it as a typo in a first draft. But for an industry professional to misuse basic terminology in a published document is absolutely cringe-worthy.

    Doing my best to put aside the loss of all credibility from the glaring misuse of terminology, the rest of the article is quite informative.

    • Allen Jones says:

      Harry, don’t get wrapped around the axle on that. This article wasn’t meant for engineers it was geared towards new users going into their first storage period. The first draft actually had the basic terminology of .25 amps. It was intentionally changed to be a bit more descriptive and demonstrate the time component to someone who otherwise might otherwise miss the correlation.

      • Ben Stein Ben Stein says:

        You’re kidding right? Exceptionally sloppy… Loss of all credibility… Come on!

        -Ben S.

        • Harry Keith Harry Keith says:

          Yes, strong words. But we see it over and over and over again. In this case, with a steady state draw, it’s actually easy to know what he meant (he meant Amps). But it’s an expert perpetuating and encouraging a very frustrating language.

          Consider a common statement on various online forums. Something like “My fridge draws 5 A/hr.” You tell me what is meant by that? It’s the EXACT SAME mistake, and completely useless. Does he mean “My fridge draws 5A when running” (mine does)? Or does he mean it draws 5Ah/h (mine draws about 3Ah/h, since it runs a little over half time)? Or since this is usually done in the context of a daily power budget, does he use 5Ah/day?

          It’s frustrating. And not just for engineers (I am one, so “he has the knack” as Dilbert’s mom learned…LOL). Talk with a friend, try to decide what he needs for a battery, and when he uses Amps/hour, try and understand what he means (no fair if you ask him what he means, just understand from his words!). It is close to the number one problem in simple battery discussions.

          Experts in the field simply don’t make this basic mistake. Does Allen actually use the words “Amps/hour”, and is that how they talked in the Tech Support department? Does he size fuses in “Amps/hour,” or look up wire sizes for given “Amps/hour?”

          • Allen Jones says:

            Harry, for tech support I use the language I think the customer might understand based on what they are showing me at the time. We use whatever language we need to help the customer understand various concepts. My goal is not to enforce technical jargon so that they might one day be able to talk to an engineer without being scolded…it is simply to help people get their project past the goal line. Keep in mind that the actual majority of people that will get their RV or boat online and in use will rarely think about such technical things again. Anyways, thanks for the opinions and point taken.

          • Rich Scillia says:

            Professor Gralla? Is that you? Still teaching University Physics I after all these years?

          • Vinzens says:

            i rarely put it in front, but this time i feel it belongs to the topic. I am an electrical engineer since 45 years.
            To structure the issue to an engineers common work process:
            a) Allen did a great job in explaining to the public a complex system like a Lithium battery. If it would have been as simple as an lead acid battery invented 120years ago, the same description would have been used.
            b) The ampere-hour (Ah) is an SI-derived unit (by the IEC Technical Committee 25) of electric charge, it is based on two out of the seven base units forming the core of the SI, current and time.
            c) Ah is a reasonable perfect unit of measurement for batteries. The content of the battery discharged in one hour and measured with an Amp-meter (A per hour (hour=1)) calculate with an integral of the the voltage equals W (unit of power)
            d) Hence, if your fridge consumes 3A and nothing more within 1hr it consumed 3A per hour (3Ah) or in capital lettpose on knowledge about fphrasers (but wrong in terms of IEC) 3AH

            To use in an public environment amps in place of A and hrs in place of h is IMHO legitimate as the aim is to have people understand the topic. It seems Harry Keith has not grabed the context and derive the content of the message. Pretty worrying, he would not be my electrical engineer of choice.

            Great job done, Allan Jones

          • Allen Jones says:

            Thank you Vinzens. Much appreciated. I thought the intent was obvious too. But despite that, hopefully the article on balance was helpful to save a few expensive battery packs this coming winter 🙂

        • Mic says:

          As fellow a “recovering” electrical engineer of, ahem, 45 years, and a fan of those who quote IEC standards, I found Vinzens comments oddly entertaining.

  6. Lewis Graham says:

    Nice article! I look forward to the day when LFP batteries include a “park” setting to maintain a 50% state of charge for storage.

    One clarification – I think the horizontal axis of the voltage vs capacity chart should be “Depth of Discharge” rather than Capacity.

  7. Charlie Johnson says:

    This was an excellent, timely, well thought out article and, as the leaves north of the Artic Circle (considered by Floridians to be the FL/GA border) are starting to turn (+/-), boats with LFP batteries are going to be laid up soon. Your recommendations are spot on.

    LFP batteries with internal BMS’s and no method for measuring and displaying individual cell voltages are especially susceptible.

    The Victron chargers that you cited are an excellent choice for recovering a neglected battery. We have used one to recover a LFP bank that had been neglected by being on the hard with a disconnected shore cord for months. Self discharge and other parasitic loads had brought bank voltage to <6 volts as I recall. The Victron charger slowly and gently recovered the bank one battery at a time.

    • Allen Jones says:

      Thanks Charlie. Some of the conversations with those who killed their battery bank were really tough.

      • Rich Rich says:

        Good info here. I am trying to come up to speed on these things. I recently bought a pair of Epoch C12460As. One is being replaced under warranty for a bad network port. The other is installed in our system as stand-alone, but i can’t get it to provide power to the system. We are currently running on 2 100Ah AGMs with no issues. When I switch to the Epoch, all the lights go out. No power. If I turn on one of the IP43 chargers, there is power, but not from the battery. I put a 5A pump across the terminals and it ran. The current showed up on the app as a 4A draw like it should. We are hauled out now, and I have a ton of work to do before we launch on monday, so I haven’t had time to do much with this.
        I would really appreciate some help here. I have been in contact with Geoffrey, and he gave me a list of things to check, but i can’t get to it now, and I think most of them will prove to not be the issue. Thanks.

  8. Bob T says:

    Very interesting article. I have one question that hopefully you can help with. I have the Epoch 460ah, V1. I use a Magnum MS2012 inverter/charger to maintain.the battery employing a CC/CV charge cycle. It all works well until the cold weather hits. Last year the internal heaters never came on when the Magnum attempted a charge cycle. I ended up using a hair dryer to warm the compartment so that charging could be done. Do the heaters start with the attempted charge using charger current or does the attempted charge use battery internal current to warm the battery? Is there a charger behavior that wouldn’t trigger the heaters? When this occurs the Magnum indicates it’s applying high current but of course the battery isn’t accepting it. This isn’t explained very well in the battery documentation.

    • Allen Jones says:

      Bob, The V1, like most drop in batteries with internal heating, would use the chargers applied power to power the heaters and would NOT use power from the cells. All incoming current is diverted to the heating pad until the required temperature is met (41 degrees in your case) and then the cells are connected to the charger. In your description you say the charger indicates it is applying high current? The V1 heater is about 10 amps. If there are no other loads and the charger is outputting a high current (I assume much greater than 10 amps) then it would presumably be going to the cells. One other tidbit for the V1. If you download the Roypow Fish app and connect it to the V1, you can toggle the “wifi” switch in the app and you will hear the heater relay click inside the battery and it will power the heater from the cells manually. At least you wont have to use a heat gun. But you should be present to monitor the situation IMO. Also, if you go to the LFPexperts.com come website and click on “resources” you will find a video covering the Epoch app that describes some of those details along with other potentially useful items.

      • Bob T says:

        Allen, thanks for the detailed response. I have the RoyPow app but didn’t know that the heaters could be manually activated. I will investigate that when the temperature starts going down later in the fall.

        For clarification, my Magnum indicated it was providing around 80 amps, my SmrtShunt showed zero as did the battery. The charging MOSFET also was off.

      • Bob T says:

        Allen, just wanted to do a follow-up post. I did use the RoyPow app to turn on the heaters when the cell temperature were in the mid 30’s. I could see they turned on but then would turn off. I’m guessing that since heat wasn’t really necessary because they were still in the charge temperature range the heaters turned off. Fast forward a couple of weeks and the temperature dropped significantly. Each time the cell temperature dropped below 32 degrees, the heaters turned on and my Magnum 2012 powered the heaters until they reached 41 degrees and then a charge cycle would be completed using the CC/Cv settings. The heaters have worked flawlessly since I turned them on with the RoyPow app. I have been able to keep track of my cold weather charge cycle with my Cerbo GX setup.

        Thanks for the the help with this, it’s made the cold weather much easier to handle.

  9. Kevin says:

    There is so much that can go wrong on an inactive boat that I installed a boat monitoring system on my last boat. We lived in Atlanta and the boat was in Tacoma. I had an alert. I called the harbor master and learned it was a soon to be fixed shore power problem and that the boat was fine. This provided a lot of peace oh mind over the years.

  10. Dennis says:

    One of the advantages of LiFePO4 vs. FLA is the much lower self-discharge rate. If you are sure that your battery doesn’t waste energy on its own (.25A – wow!), which it really shouldn’t, and your boat is in a non-freezing environment, I think you have a winterizing option 4: With SOC around 50-60%, disconnect and secure one of the battery terminals. That’s it. I have done this twice now for 6 and 8 months respectively and the voltage was at ~13.2 V when I returned. I then fully charged the battery, which calibrates the battery monitor again, and off I go sailing.

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